HOW TO CONVICT AN EX-PRESIDENT IN A SENATE TRIAL, OR BARRING THAT, IN THE COURT OF PUBLIC OPINION
An all time classic movie- Inherit the Wind, with Spencer Tracy as the Clarence Darrow character (Matthew Brady) who has the unique opportunity to win the war of creationism versus evolution in a Tennessee courtroom (the famous Scopes "Monkey Trial" of 100 years ago) by cross examining his flummoxed opposing counsel, actor Fredric March as William Jennings Bryan's character (Henry Drummond) who makes the fatal mistake of agreeing to testify as an expert witness: on the Bible.
In real life- and in the play, then movie- Darrow eviscerated his opponent who thought that he was smarter than Darrow.
A primer in how a trial lawyer hired by the House impeachment managers would try Donald John Trump before the United States Senate, after first announcing loudly and prominently in advance that Trump will be called as the first witness- and that Trump will get what he has proclaimed he always wanted: his opportunity to introduce evidence of the "massive voter fraud" that stole the election from him. The lie that he used to incite violent cult followers to assault the Capitol and murder a Capitol Police officer, injure dozens, send Congressmen and Senators and the Vice President scurrying for cover under shouts of "Hang Mike Pence"- and stopping the ceremonial counting of the votes for president and vice president cast by the Electoral Collge. The huge lie that he proclaimed over and over.
The trick to a good cross examination is that it's the question that matters, no matter how the witness answers.
And you always start out with questions that no smart and reasonable person- or someone pretending to be, like egocentric narcissist Trump, would say no to, and walk him down the garden path.
Off the top of my head, here's what I've got.
Q. Mr. Trump, the president's job is to execute the law, isn't that correct? That's why he's called "The Chief Executive, " right?
A. Yes.
Q. And of course, you can't execute the laws unless you know them- or if you don't know, you have White House counsel or people in the Justice Department you can ask, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would include the law about what constitutes fraud, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And one example of fraud is when a person makes a material misrepresentation of fact- like a car dealer claiming that the car he is trying to sell has never been in a wreck, when it actually was wrecked twice already- and a buyer relies on that misrepresentation of fact to his detriment and suffers harm by paying for a wrecked car he thought was never in a car wreck, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And another example of fraud can also be when a person gives someone else a forged document and tells that person it's a legitimate, real document- like a check, or a deed- and the person receiving it pays for it and is harmed by relying on that misrepresentation, isn't that correct?
A. Yes. [REMEMBER: HE'S GOING TO KEEP SAYING YES BECAUSE HE KNOWS THAT IT SOUNDS TRUE AND HE KNOWS THAT EVERY ONE ELSE KNOWS IT'S TRUE AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO REVEAL HOW IGNORANT HE IS.]
Q. And you have heard of another kind of fraud called "election fraud," haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you have referred to election fraud after the 2020 Presidential election, haven't you?
A. Yes.
Q. So it would be fair to assume that you know what election fraud is, am I correct? Because it wouldn't make sense to claim that election fraud had occurred if you didn't even know what that phrase meant, am I correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And committing fraud in a federal election- that's a crime under federal law, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And committing fraud in a federal election which is conducted by state election officials, that may very well be a crime under that state's laws as well, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are aware that election fraud in a federal election, is a felony, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And if one or more persons commits that felony of election fraud, you would agree that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you are aware, I am sure, that even an attempt to commit a felony is a crime, even if the person fails in the attempt isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And if somebody were to attempt to commit election fraud, you would agree that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, correct? Because the integrity of our elections is very important to this country, to our democracy, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would agree that if that person were convicted of election fraud, or convicted of the attempt to commit election fraud, he or she should go to prison, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, going back a moment, you have very publicly claimed, over and over, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen from you because of massive election fraud, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. You claimed very publicly, over and over, that you won the 2020 Presidental election- that you got more votes that President Biden in states that were actually certified for him, whose electoral votes went to President Biden, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And there were four states in particular whose vote totals you challenged, where you claimed that you had won except that the election was stolen from you, and those four states were Arizona, Michigan, Georgia, and Pennsylvania, isn't that true? You claimed that you actually won the popular vote in those four states, that you received more votes that President Biden in each of those states, isn't that true?
Q. And as I asked a moment ago, of course you wouldn't have publicly- and repeatedly- claimed that the election was stolen from you by massive election fraud in those states unless you knew exactly what election fraud was, isn't that true? Because if you didn't even know what election fraud was, it wouldn't make any sense that you would publicly claim that it happened, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wouldn't publicly- and repeatedly- claim that there was massive election fraud, unless you had evidence that fraud had occurred, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And of course, you are aware that by evidence, we don't mean rumor, do we?
A. No.
Q. We don't mean speculation, do we?
A. No.
Q. We don't mean hearsay- as in, I heard that someone else saw something or heard somebody else say something, do we?
A. No.
Q. When we say evidence, we don't mean wild conspiracy theories with no basis, do we?
A. No.
Q. When we say evidence, we mean evidence like the kind that is produced in a court, in front of a judge, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. We don't mean an affidavit- what someone wrote on a piece of paper, which can't be cross examined, by evidence we mean a live witness, who can be put under oath, whose veracity and ability and opportunity to have seen whatever he or she claims to have seen can be tested, correct?
A. Yes,
Q. Becaise if a sitting President of the United States is going to publicly, on television, in tweets on Twitter, at live rallies, tell the American people that an election was stolen from him, that he actually won the election, he wouldn't do that or say that unless he had actual hard evidence, evidence that would stand up in a court where that election was challenged, am I correct?
A. No.
Q. And of course, fraud can't just happen by itself- somebody, some person or persons, have to actually do some actions that create the fraud, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now lets get down to some details on the presidential election you claim was stolen from you.
You said that the election was stolen from you in Pennyslvania, and that you should have received Pennsylvania's 20 electoral votes, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said that the election was stolen from you in Arizona, that you should have received Arizona's 11 electoral votes, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said the election was stolen from you in Michigan, that you should have received Michigan's 16 electoral votes, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You also said that the election ws stolen from you in Georgia, that you should have received Georgia's 16 electoral votes, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you had been awarded the electoral votes in those states, if those 63 electoral votes had gone to you and not to President Biden, you would have been inaugurated on January 20, 2021, and not President Biden, and you would be sitting here, impeached for the second time in just over a year, as the current President of the United States, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And the Secretaries of State in each of those four states- the people whose job it is to receive election totals from each county, make sure that they got all of the votes cast in the election, then certify those totals to their governors and to Congress so that the winner's electors get to cast their votes on December 14th in each state's capitol building- those Secretaries of State reported that you got fewer votes than Joseph R. Biden in each of those four states.
A. Yes.
Q. And when you said that those elections in each state were stolen, you meant election fraud was committed deliberately by somebody affecting the vote totals in each of those states, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't say that the vote totals were just wrong by accident or by mistake, did you?
A. No.
A. You said "stolen." You said that some person or persons actually acted or conspired take votes from you, or add them to President Biden, or change the vote totals, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you have said publicly- told your followers who attended your rallies or who watched you on television or read your Twitter posts- before Twitter cut you off after your mob attacked the Capitol and murdered a policeman- that you won in a landslide. A landslide. Correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now according to the Secretaries of State in each of those four states that you lost- Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Georgia, you lost the popular vote in each state by more than 10,000 votes, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
[PUT UP A GRAPH WHICH SHOWS EVERY STATE'S TOTALS AND THE DIFFERENCE IN EVERY STATE AND D.C., with highlights on those four states.]
Q. Do you see this graph here which lists the popular votes totals and electoral college totals for each separate state and the District of Columbia?
A. Yes.
Q. I imagine you must have looked at these numbers and reviewed these vote totals a lot after the November 3, 2020 election was called by all of the major news networks- including Fox (!) for President Biden on Saturday November 7, 2020, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you have any reason to doubt that these are the correct totals of the popular votes that were certified by the Secretaries of State- apart from your contentions of fraud- but that these were the totals that each State claimed were cast in the election?
A. No
Q. Now, according to the Pennsylvania Secretary of State, President Biden won Pennsylvania by over 80,000 votes- 3,458,229 for President Biden to 3,377,674 for you, as certified by the Secretary of State, correct? Exactly 80,555 votes, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And according to Michigan's certified vote totals, he won Michigan by over 154,000 votes: 2,804,040 for President Biden to 2,649,852 for you, exactly 154,188 correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Now Arizona was much closer. That state was certified by its Secretary of State that President Biden only won by just over 10,000 votes: 1,672,143 for President Biden to 1,661,686 for you, exactly 10,457 votes according to Arizona's Secretary of State, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And Georgia was certified by its Secretary of State, Brad Raffensberger, for President Biden to have won by over 11,000 votes, 2,473,633 to 2,461,854: 11,779 votes exactly.
A. Yes.
Q. And you claimed, over and over, that there was election fraud in Georgia, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is the governor of Georgia?
A. Brian Kemp (first open question of the entire cross!)
Q. And who is Georgia's Secretary of State?
A. Brad Raffensberger (if he forgets, then "refresh his memory.")
Q. What political party does Brian Kemp belong to?
A. Republican.
Q. In fact, Governor Kemp very prominently and publicly supported you in the 2020 election, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And what political party does Brad Raffensberger belong to?
A. Republican.
Q. And Secretary of State Raffensberger publicly said that he voted for you, and that he wanted you to win the election, didn't he?
A. Yes (if he says no, play the video of Raffensberger saying exactly that, and ask if that refreshes his memory)
Q. But in spite of the fact that both the Governor and the Secretary of State who administers the elections in Georgia were members of your own party, who both publicly supported you and voted for you, you still claimed that there was election fraud in Georgia- enough fraud that you actually won that state, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many votes would you have needed- how many additional votes would you have needed on top of your vote total- to have won the state?
A. 11,780. (if he balks- just ask him if he remembers that was the correct number. If he still balks, tell him we'll get back to that in a minute.)
Q. Now, Mr. Trump, you would agree that election fraud could include many things: stuffing ballot boxes right?
A. Yes.
Q. It could include persons not legally entitled to vote knowingly voting anyway, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It could include people forging ballots and mailing them in, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. It could also involve finding a corrupt election official and persuading him or her to change the vote totals, isn't that also true?
A. Yes.
Q. So if a person who lost an election were to telephone an election official, and demand that the election official change the vote totals to add votes to his total to give him enough votes to win the election, and if the election official changed that total, even though those votes didn't actually exist, that would be election fraud, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And I'm sure you are aware, since you were the president, and you were in charge of executing the laws, that a person who tries to get a public official to change a vote total to help that person win a federal election he had actually lost- that's not only election fraud, it's actually a felony under federal law, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you know that you lost Georgia by 11,779 votes because you called Georgia's Secretary of State on January 2, 2021, and you asked him to "find" you 11,780 votes- one more than you needed to win the election, to change the results, correct?
A. Yes. [if he denies it, get back to him in a moment]
Q. If you did do that, if you called a Secretary of State to ask him to change the vote totals to declare you the winner, but those votes didn't actually exist, you would be guilty of a felony, correct?
A. [doesn't matter what he answers)
Q. Would you recognize your own voice if you heard a recording of it?
A. Yes.
Q. I'm going to play a portion of a recording and ask you if that is your voice [play enough of the call to Raffensberger so that he can identify his own voice.]
A. that's my voice.
Q. And the person you were talking to was Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensberger, correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And how many votes did you ask Secretary Raffensberger to find for you?
A. (doesn't matter- if he says he doesn't know, or gets it wrong, play that portion of the recording where he asks him to find exactly 11,780 votes.)
Q. So you asked him to find you 11,780 votes. Exactly the number you needed to flip the state.
A. Yes.
Q. And of course, you did not tell him where to find those 11,780 votes, did you?
A. No. (if doesn't recall- play the whole 59 minute call and ask him: did you hear yourself tell him where to find those votes?)
Q. And you even told him he could get in trouble- that he and his lawyer, Ryan Germany, were taking a big risk- criminally- if they didn't do what you asked, didn't you?
A. yes (or no,- then play that portion of the recording)
Q. And during that phone call, you asked Secretary of State Raffensberger to "give me a break," didn't you?
A. yes (or play recording).
Q. You told him, and I quote, "I just need 11,000 votes" didn't you?
A. yes (or play recording)
Q. And will you finally admit, - and you are under oath, and the laws of perjury apply- that when you called Secretary of State Raffensburger, you didn't have any evidence that there were 11,780 votes for Donald John Trump just lying around somewhere where he could "find" them (make air quote), did you?
A. (doesn't matter if denies it, then ask him where on that call he told him that he had evidence of fraud and offered to produce it- and if he does have that evidence- why didn't he bring it with him to this trial when he knew in advance that this was his chance to put that evidence before the Senate, before the country, before all of his voters and supporters, before the world)
Q. And when you called Secretary Raffensberger, you didn't offer to provide him evidence- hard evidence, no rumor, not speculation, not hearsay, not a wild conspiracy theory- you didn't offer to provide him any evidence of fraud during that entire 59 minute phone call, did you?
A. No (or play recording)
Q. Because if you had evidence of fraud, you would be incompent. You'd be a fool. An idiot. If you had that evidence but didn't produce it, isn't that true?
A. (doesn't matter- it's the question that matters).
Q. And you knew in advance that if you had evidence of fraud in the election in Georgia, that you should bring that evidence with you today, isn't that true? Because we told you that in advance. We told your lawyers. We went on television shows that you watch- even on Fox- and told you that you should bring your evidence of election fraud here and put it before this impeachment court of 100 senators, before your followers watching on television, before the entire country, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you said that an election that you won in a landslide was stolen from by election fraud, that had to mean that there was fraud great enough, in large enough numbers, to overcome the tens of thousands of votes by which the Secretaries of State in those four states certified that you had been outpolled by President Joseph R. Biden, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. Because if it was only one or two votes, or only ten, or only a hundred, or even only ten thousand votes- that wasn't enough to change the winner in any of those four states? Because President Biden won every one of those four states by more than 10,000 votes, correct?
A. Yes.
A (doesn't matter)
Q. And you didn't bring any such legally admissible evidence here, to present to this Senate, to your followers watching on television, to the whole country, to the world, did you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. In fact, your lawyers did not present in any courtroom legally admissible evidence of fraud- deliberate actions by persons which were large enough in scope to change the outcome of the election- in Michigan, where you lost by over 154,000 votes, did you?
A. (doesn't matter)
Q. And you didn't bring any such legally admissible evidence here with you- to prove that you actually won an election in Michigan that you lost by over 154,000 votes, did you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. Mr. Trump, do you realize that you have now achieved your intended goal- you have finally managed to find election fraud in the State of Georgia? Well, not actually election fraud- but a criminal attempt to commit election fraud?
A. (doesn't matter)
Q. And the person who attempted to commit election fraud in Georgia, who tried to coerce or persuade an election official, the Secretary of State of Georgia, to change the vote totals, to "find" enough votes- 11,780- for you to have won by just one vote, was Donald John Trump, corrrect?
A. (doesn't matter)
Q. And you already agreed that any person who committed that election fraud- or even the criminal attempt at election fraud- if they are found out, should be tried, convicted, and go to prison, correct?
A. Yes (or doesn't matter- have the court reporter read back his answer)
Q. And are you willing to plead guilty, and save the State of Georgia and Fulton County the expense of having to try your sorry excuse for a human being? And are you prepared to go to prison?
A. (doesn't matter)
Q. I'll give you one last chance to redeem a small part of yourself Mr. Trump: in front of this Senate, on television to the millions of people who believed in you, who believed you when you claimed this election was stolen, that there was massive fraud, will you finally admit, now that you are under oath and subject to the penalties of perjury- that you did not produce here evidence of fraud sufficient to overturn the election in any of those four states- Arizona, Michigan, Pennsylvania, or Georgia, let alone all four of them, did you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. No evidence. None here, correct?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. Perhaps by the time you get out of prison in Georgia, or in New York, or Federal prison, whereever the authorities decide you are to serve your well deserved prison sentence, you may have found evidence of fraud by then, eh Mr. Trump?
A. (Really doesn't matter.)
NOW, let's talk about January 6, 2021, four days after your telephone call to Secretary Raffensberger asking him to "find" (air quotes) exactly 11,780 votes to change the result of the election in Georgia.
Q. You addressed a rally in a partk, Lafayette Park, across from the White House that day, didn' you?
A. Yes.
Q. In fact, you had tweeted out to your followers that they should show up for a "stop the steal" rally that day, didn't you?
A. Yes [show tweets on screen]
Q. And you told them that it would "be wild" didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you knew that a lot of your followers are what you would term, what you referred to them in your rallies as "Second Amendment" people, meaning that they own guns and like to carry them, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you weren't the only speaker at your rally, were you?
A. No.
Q. Your personal lawyer, Rudy Guliani, also spoke on that same stage where you later addressed the same audience, didn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. And he exhorted the crowd that "Let's have trial by combat!" (play the video)
A Yes.
Q. And your son, Don, Junior, was on the same stage before you were, and he exhorted the crowd to "fight" to stop the steal (play the video)
"This should be a message to all the Republicans who have not been willing to actually fight. The people who did nothing to stop the steal," Trump Jr said. "This gathering should send a message to them: This isn't their Republican Party anymore. This is Donald Trump's Republican Party. This is the Republican Party that will put America first."
A. Yes.
Q. And when you got up there, when you addressed the crowd, you told them to march down Pennsylvania Avenue, to the Capitol, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You told them to do so "peacefully and patriotically," correct? (play video)
We have come to demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated, lawfully slated. I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard. Today we will see whether Republicans stand strong for integrity of our elections, but whether or not they stand strong for our country, our country. Our country has been under siege for a long time, far longer than this four-year period.
A. Yes.
Q. But you also told them to "demand that Congress do the right thing and only count the electors who have been lawfully slated," didn't you?
Q. Yes.
Q. And at the moment you had the rally, Congress was already assembled inside the House chamber to count the votes that the electoral college had already cast, isn't that true? Every senator, every representative, was inside the building- in a room with no windows, in a building that had Capitol Police surrounding it preventing the public from entering, isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. So can you explain exactly how that crowd, that mob that you, your son, your lawyer, had gotten wound up, and that you specifcally sent down Pennsylvania Avenue to the Capitol, to a building where the House chamber has no windows to the outside, a building closed off to the public, ringed by barricades and Capitol police- can you explain exactly how they could follow your direction to them to deliver your message to Congress- how to deliver it without pushing past the barricades, bowling over the police, bashing in doors, breaking windows, killing one police officer, injuring dozens of others?
A. (doesn't matter)
Q. And you also told them that you would march down with them, you said "we" will go down Pennyslvania Avenue: (play tape)
"So we’re going to, we’re going to walk down Pennsylvania Avenue, I love Pennsylvania Avenue, and we’re going to the Capitol and we’re going to try and give… The Democrats are hopeless. They’re never voting for anything, not even one vote. But we’re going to try and give our Republicans, the weak ones, because the strong ones don’t need any of our help, we’re going to try and give them the kind of pride and boldness that they need to take back our country."
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. But you lied to them, didn't you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. You promised to walk down there with them. To to to the Capitol with them. But you didn't, did you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. Instead, you went back to the White House across from the park, didn't you?
A (doesn't matter)
Q. And you watched on television as the mob, your followers, carrying banners with your name on them, wearing your red MAGA hats, marched down to the Capitol, overwhelmed the Capitol police, knocked over barricades, bashed in doors, broke windows, scaled walls with climbing equipment, took over the Capitol- you watched that on television,didn't you.
A (doesn't matter- the other witnesses will confirm it).
Q. And your office got frantic phone calls from members of Congress, asking you to stop your mob, didn't you?
A. (doesn't matter, other witnesses in White House and in House will confirm it).
Q. But you didn't send a message to your mob to immediately leave, did you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. Not even a tweet?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. You saw them disrupt the ceremonial counting of the votes, sending everyone scattering, the counting of the votes that would finally confirm that you had lost the election, that you were the LOSER, didn't you?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. The counting of the votes that you wanted them to stop, that you specifically told them to stop- to "stop the steal", isn't that true?
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. And you were asked to send help. To call in the National Guard as the mob was chanting "Hang Mike Pence," as they put up a gallows with a noose. As they went looking for the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, to tear her to pieces. As they occupied her office. As they trashed her office. As your mob was posting live on Facebook and Instagram even from inside the Capitol. And you did nothing.
A. (doesn't matter).
Q. You had gotten what you wanted- Congress had been driven to cover, from their own chamber, from the sacred grounds of the Capitol- and the vote counting had stopped. And you did nothing.
A. (Doesn't matter.)
Q. One of the mob was killed- shot as she tried to bash in the doors to the House chamber. One of your followers. But you did nothing.
A. (doesn't matter.)
Q. A Capitol Police Officer was murdered by your mob. But you did nothing.
A . (doesn't matter)
Q. And the Capitol Police who remained, who tried to do their jobs, were overwhelmed (show the video of the screaming officer being crushed in the doorway).
And you did nothing.
A. (doesn't matter).
NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, MR. PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE.
posted by James Finkelstein (Ga.) at 5:26 PM
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